S1E3 OVERTHINKING W/ STEPH [KAILEY DAVID]

STEPH INTRO: Do you have trouble turning off your brain meat at night? I invite you to take a break from your thoughts and listen to ours for a while. This is overthinking with Steph.

INTRO SONG: “Quit overthinkin’ alone… overthinking with Steph is better. We’re overthinkin’ together!” Steph: “That was stupid. Let’s come up with a whole new intro.” Mallory: “ughhhh Steph!!!”

STEPH: Bring the Dongle to your lips.

BOTH: laugh.

STEPH: So in the loft today, I have my friend, Kailey. Kailey freaking David, and you know, she's gained a lot of new followers on Instagram since posting her beautiful photo that I took of her… three years ago?

KAILEY: I think it was three.

STEPH: Very sultry, your hair was very red.

KAILEY: I think it might've been freshly dyed.

STEPH: It also might've been my editing back then.

KAILEY: I think it might've been both. A little bit of both.

STEPH: It's true. So I've known Kailey for… the first time I remember meeting you, or knowing of you was in 2014, is this right? Remember when we were at that brunch for Jackie.

KAILEY: I know, but I don't remember

STEPH: Jackie, and….

KAILEY: I'd need a picture.

STEPH: I have a photo of you from that day! Yes. We were all sitting on the patio enjoying… In 2014, cause of who I was dating then. That's how I remember all of my years, either how my hair was styled or who I was dating.

KAILEY: I don't remember that. I remember the actual setting. I can picture Bolsa and I have a picture in my head of an event, but I don't remember us meeting. Did we actually physically…

STEPH: I shook your hand. Just kidding. You sat right across from me. I’ll send you the photo. Isn't this like highly frowned upon on podcasts? You're not supposed to have too many inside jokes or the intro is not supposed to be long, so I've already failed.

KAILEY: It's fine. It's fine.

STEPH: I think what people would most know you for the Promote Love interview. We sat down and did, I was actually shocked that you told me you would do that because I know that's pretty… yeah.

Because I mean, it's hard to talk about family stuff. It's hard to talk about religion and it's hard to talk about, you know, figuring out your gayness or your bisexuality or what it feels like in that moment. To acknowledge that you're part of the LGBT community. Especially when you were raised in church, and I think that's why I started this podcast in the first place, was to have those conversations, to have people feel a little bit less alone in their journey.

Because if we don't talk about that, then we all just kind of are left there dealing with ourselves, overthinking things half the time, and then dealing with the struggle with reconciling your faith, with God, reconciling your relationship with your family. So what are some of the.. first of all, were you nervous to do that video and sit down and have that story out in the world?

And then what was the feedback like on that?

KAILEY: You know, it's funny when you asked me to do that, I had zero hesitation. I was like, yeah, totally. Let's do it. And even when we were filming it and we were editing it, I was never nervous.

I don't know why I think that at that point in my life and in my sexuality, I was just happy to shout it, happy to be who I was. I was kind of in a place where I felt proud of myself, whether people liked to be with me or not, and I always say if if my story can help one person, then that's a win, you know? And so I was super happy to do it. I was not nervous about putting it out there.

I didn't really think about how many people would see it. Like you don't think about all those random Facebook friends that you have, but…

STEPH: or even people from like childhood.

KAILEY: what I mean, like high school and middle school and my parent’s friends, you know, things like that. Or you don't think about those humans that are watching you without speaking to you.

And so I put it out there, and I really didn't think anything of it. And then I got so much, so much wonderful feedback and just the kindest words and people shared it! Which that, that was the most shocking thing to me, that people took the time to write their own caption and to push my story out there because they related to it or they loved it and they trusted me.

That meant so, so much that they wanted to put it on their page and share that with their followers or their friends because it's not their story. But I think maybe a part of it was, and so that meant so, so much to me. I got several people saying, you know, this is my story, like DM me and saying, thank you for saying that. This is what I go through.

STEPH: I mean right now, I was thinking if I were to film it again with you, how much I would want to be in the conversation with you instead of like behind the scenes. And I feel like that's why this is happening today. But I wasn't in a place to where I was ready. So I was almost, not living vicariously through others stories, but as a photographer that's what I'm paid to do too, is to kind of be behind the scenes.

But also documenting other people's stories so that that can come to light and, and be relatable for someone else. But what most people didn't know is that I was relating to those stories and it was actually helping me get through maybe a very difficult time in my life with my family.

So now I'm at the point where I want to have these conversations and be included in them, and step out from behind the camera. So I just appreciate you sitting down here and talking with me.

KAILEY: And you know what's funny about that? You say that you were living vicariously through our stories, but after doing that, I found myself… this is going to sound so narcissistic, but I found myself rewatching my video lot, which sounds weird and odd, but it's almost like there was a lot of times where I needed to speak those words to myself again. Like I needed to hear those kind thoughts about God and about friends and about love and loving yourself, right?

It's almost like I had these dark days where I needed to be reminded of what I thought, and so I went back. I went back and would watch it over and over again just because I got, I was in a place where I was felt lonely or I felt sad, and I was like, you know what? I know better. I know that I have love in my life.

I know that God loves me, but it's like I needed that refresher and so I thought, I think it's so weird that I'm sitting there watching my own videos.

STEPH: Like encouraging yourself like a year later.

KAILEY: Yes, but it's like I needed to, I needed to hear that again.

STEPH: I give myself pep talks all the time.

Yeah. Like I talk to myself a lot too.

KAILEY: And I think that even in prayer, that's the thing that I do, or I'm like, even though I'm asking for things, it's really more like give me confidence, because I know I’m competent, I know that I can be confident. So it's almost like I just needed to hear those refreshing words again if I was having a bad day, just to kind of speak truth into myself.

STEPH: I love that.

KAILEY: And like a third party way.

STEPH: I wonder if Kayla and her mom ever watched those over again. Cause that was another one that was really important, important conversation with losing someone very close to you, your mom, which you struggled with.

KAILEY: I totally relate to that.

STEPH: And then they came back and had this very strong relationship. They’re still like, two of the best friends.

KAILEY: it's so hilarious, they also look identical, which is also fun.

STEPH: I think that a lot of people want, I think they want to know what you're up to these days. So we're going to talk about things like religion, sexuality, family, health, and the fact that Kailey had to bring me a banana and an orange because all I have in my, in my refrigerator are pregnant people [foods]. I was like, I'm going to eat a pickle and one hard boiled egg.

KAILEY: Goodness gracious.

STEPH: So what was… do you have one comment from that video that you feel like stuck out in your mind that you received?

KAILEY: I think it's the, I think I've even screenshot things to you back then when it was someone like sending me a true DM saying, this helped me, you know, become more close with my faith or be more faithful or anything like that. Anything God related.

I don't see myself as any kind of, you know, speaker or representative in any way, shape or form. And so that always, cause that's not me, I'm not doing the work there. God's in the work there, but that's just so powerful that they could get that from my story.

Cause I still feel like I'm such a work in progress every day anyways.

STEPH: Okay, this is not on our list of things to talk about, but you just said something that. I've always thought about that I've struggled with and maybe this is a touchy subject. But let's just get into it. You had said that's not, that's not me doing that. That's the Lord. And I feel like I can see how people would believe that, because that's how I was taught. That's how I was raised.

But that also affected my self worth and how I was able to be proud of myself for anything I accomplished because it was always, Oh, give it to God. Or this was God, that wasn't you Steph, that was the Lord. You know? And I think there is a fine line between knowing what you've done and that you're capable of doing big things without maybe it being the Lord.

I don't know. What do you, what do you think?

KAILEY: Well, I think that's, well... I think that's really sad that they kind of weaponized God's power against you. You know what I mean? I think that the way that I see it, it's almost like a… a relief that it's not having to be me, cause I'm not perfect and I'm going to make mistakes, but it doesn't matter cause I'm not in charge. Is kind of how I think of it.

And so it's like when someone says, if someone's listening to a pastor and they say, “well, listening to you brought me to God,” that pastor is just the mouthpiece for essentially the Lord speaking through him to everybody else and he's being used. And that's great. I would, I love that any anyone would think that I'm being used.

And so to give that credit away is not necessarily me saying I'm not worthy of it. Just me saying like, that's awesome that my story can be used for good… can be used to help people feel good about themselves.

STEPH: Right.

KAILEY: And so I see that I had to go through it. I had to come out the other side to be able to tell that story, and so I did work.

STEPH: But no, that makes sense.

KAILEY: I think that it's a, it's kind of a positive thing and a relief thing that I don't have to bear that burden.

It's not my job to save people. That's not what I'm doing here. I'm just here to, if I can tell a story that takes people there, then…

STEPH: See, that's where I've always respected you and your faith, where it was different than what I was raised because we were trained to save people.

Right? Like that was the mission. And that was your only mission. I mean, I remember watching Jesus Camp as an adult, that documentary. I was like, Oh my gosh. That was totally my upbringing. You felt this like cringy sadness for this eight year old girl that was going up to strangers and saying, you know, she wasn’t like having a conversation.

It was like this rehearsed narrative to save people from burning in a Lake of fire, and I know that I can still talk about it. It took me a long time to talk about that without feeling like I was going to throw up or you know, like this anxiety of I was one of those people, I don't believe it anymore because I don't identify as a Christian anymore.

I know a lot of people don't know that, and a lot of people have asked me that, but I remember sitting and having a conversation with a client that I had just met and they asked me directly, are you a Christian anymore? And I was not prepared to answer that, but I did. And I said, no. And I still stand by that and I respect people that have that faith.

But I also respect people… Mallory's calling. Um, I should turn off my phone… I respect anyone who finds something positive in any religion, you know, so I think what is a challenge, or what was the challenge for me, is going from the Lord did that and having no pride in what I did for myself as a person then to now, if I don't identify as a Christian and someone you know, turns their life around for the better because of something I said, then does it feel like, Oh. Well, now that's me. Does it feel like arrogant or cocky or, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, I think maybe other people might feel that same way too.

And if you're always focusing something on, you know, a higher power I think there's a fine line. There's somewhere in the middle that people can meet to where it's like, I feel good about what I've done in the world because I'm a good person without it being The Lord who did it.

KAILEY: And I think that there's a, there's two ways to view that, right?

You can say if something good happens, that wasn't really because of me, but also if something bad happens, that wasn't because of me either. You know, if someone doesn't, if somebody disagrees, that's fine, you know? So it's kind of, it's not necessarily saying that you're not responsible for your actions, but at the end of the day, it's like I don't have the control.

And so I can only do what I do and people are going to do what they want to do. And only hope that they take good away from that. And so I think that I've always been of this school of thought that's opposite of what you were taught as a kid. Is just to say, I don't have to go to work and wear a Jesus fish and wear my Christian shirt, you know? And like, my Bible with my hand and all…

STEPH: We used to get Bibles thrown at us.

KAILEY: Okay, so that's terrible.

STEPH: It's a story for a different day, or this podcast…

KAILEY: I think that I've always thought if I just go into work and I'm kind to people, if I go into work and I'm on time and I work hard and I do the right things my faith comes through in those actions more than if I were to go up to somebody and say, are you saved? You know the Lord, like that's not going to save anybody. But I think if I can treat them well, I can be kind to you.

I can be nice and funny and inclusive and then you happen to find out later that I'm a Christian because I have mentioned Bible study, or I mentioned a podcast I listen to, and they correlate the two and they think, huh, I've always thought religious people are, you know, aggressive and assertive and rude, but you're not.

Maybe that'll change their mind. You know? And so I've always kind of been to the school of thought where it's more, my actions will speak louder than me testifying to somebody. And I can only hope that that comes through.

STEPH: I agree. Now. I also think that it doesn't hit close to home, or it's not real until someone close to you comes out.

Then it's, it's like you have to deal with it because you have this picture in your mind of who they were their whole life, you know? And they're still that same person. And so when they come out it's like they have to almost reshape what they thought of you the whole time when really it's not even the case, it's the same person.

They're just choosing to be honest with you and truthful about something so important inside of them. And so when you figured out and you had that light bulb moment that you talked about in the video, like, “Oh my gosh, I don't have to be gay. I don't have to. Oh, I can be bi, I'm bi like, yeah.”

Do you remember where you were or like what triggered it?

KAILEY: It's so random. I literally remember the minute, and the moment. It's like a weird light bulb moment where I was at the gym. Literally re-racking dumbbells and I just, I don't know. Does that sound really gay?

STEPH: It’s so gay. You're like, I was adjusting my tool belt, my cargo shorts.

I'm just kidding.

KAILEY: As I say it, hear it out loud, but truthfully, I was at the gym putting weights away. I can remember it like it was yesterday and it just hit me and I thought, “Oh my God. I'm bi!”

STEPH: Did it freak you out or did you feel like a weight off your shoulders?

KAILEY: It felt so obvious in the moment, it felt like I should have known that the whole time.

Why didn't I see it? Like a blindfold came off and I thought, “huh.” And it was as easy as it felt when I first had my first girlfriend. I was like, this is weird cause it's not weird. That kind of feeling where, it just felt normal. It was in that moment where I realized, I thought, “Oh. Duh.” You know what I mean?

And I don't know what triggered it, I don't know what it was, but it just was like a light was turned on.

STEPH: Who's the first person you told?

KAILEY: I have no idea.

STEPH: Like the guy in the gym next to you.

KAILEY: I don't know who I told. I'm sure it was my friend Courtney, cause I tell her absolutely everything but yeah…

STEPH: cakes Courtney?

KAILEY: Yeah, cakes Courtney.

Yes. But I don't remember who I told, but I just remember, I remember that moment. I can just picture myself at the exact gym. It's such a weird thing to say, but yeah, it was literally a moment in time that it was like, you know, BB like before, before with sexuality.

STEPH: Did you ever feel… when you were going to church, did you ever take your significant other with you when you were dating a woman? Did you feel weird about it or how did you feel?

KAILEY: No, I think… there was a time where I didn't, and there was a time when I really did, you know, like I feel like there's a time when I didn't [go to church], because I wasn't comfortable. I was still questioning and I wasn't really going to church all that much. But then once I kind of turned that page, we would go. And also it was hard to find a church that we felt comfortable in, and that's always a problem too. Right? And so we had a Methodist church nearby…

STEPH: Those Methodists, I tell ya, they're always so inclusive.

KAILEY: I mean, now. Yeah. Right, right. They, you know, they have, all of the Methodist churches have like rainbow flags and rainbow mouthwash in the bathroom.

STEPH: I always wear a cape when I go to those churches.

KAILEY: and so we would go to that church and we felt fine there, like, I felt good. But I remember going to church with an ex way back when, like several girlfriends ago, but it was at, um, I think it was a Methodist church, but they had like the LGBTQ community and maybe like the homeless community that would come in, we had service in like a different room.

And my girlfriend liked it cause she felt like she was, you know, at home and she felt comfortable there, which I understand, but it also felt like, exile on an Island, send them in the back room with like the 10 chairs and the cold coffee and no one look! Look away. And so I just felt like a weirdo and yeah, it was really sweet and such a wonderful service and it was great, but it just felt like you weren't getting to be a part of the big church.

You know you’re at the kids table. Preface this with whatever floats your boat, wherever you're comfortable, I understand, and it's hard to find a place and if that’s the only option.

STEPH: Also, safety's a thing too, like you want to be around other gay people and feel safe, but it is a struggle.

KAILEY: Absolutely. Just let us be in a church with everyone else! We're not diseased. We are not weird. Let us, we all exist, like, just be humans and stand side by side. But yeah. So, towards the end of my last relationship, yes, we did go to Methodist church together and I did not feel worried about that just because it was super inclusive.

STEPH: And you still go to church?

KAILEY: I haven't gone to church in a while.

Not for any particular reason. I went to church. I was living in Austin for a couple of years, I went to church there. I've moved back to Dallas since and I haven't really found a church yet here, but not, not because I don't want to go, just haven't found one that I like yet.

STEPH: Oh, this is a good one. This is a great question, actually. I think I know the answer, but, okay. Do you feel like your relationship with God at any point shifted based on who you were dating or do you think it was pretty consistent or did it kind of ebb and flow or…

KAILEY: I think it ebbs and flows naturally. Having nothing to do with who I'm dating just because, life and being a human.

STEPH: I think the reason I asked that, sorry, is because in the video you had mentioned feeling like you are a little bit more loved or, given more attention by your family based off of who you were dating. So I wondered if that played any part in your heart or your mind, like, you know, with God.

KAILEY: You know what's funny is that I don't think I ever felt far from God during, it was like seven years of really tough struggles with my family, and with my religion and just wrestling with all of that. I never felt like I was forgotten or left away or kind of thrown out to dry. I think that's what has helped me kind of stay steady in my faith.

I'm not perfect by any means, but I've always felt like God never left me. I was just confused. I don't know the right answers or everyone's telling me something different, you know? I would talk to one pastor and he was like, “no, religion is totally fine with being gay.” And then of course you're the next pastor and it's the opposite answer.

I was so confused. I was reading book after book about this person who's changed their life and they were gay, but not anymore. You know? And then it's someone else who is religious and gay and they’ve accepted it. And so I'm just getting mixed messages. And I would think I was confusing myself when at the end of the day, I know that God was saying beside me saying, I love you no matter what.

And I knew that. I think I was just anxious and in my head, and there was all these different outside factors, parents and girlfriends and society and friends.

STEPH: and it almost takes your focus off of, of the Lord and who you're in the relationship with, right.

KAILEY: All kinds of crap.

STEPH: Yeah. You know that I worked at Family Christian Store when I was 17? and I remember searching the computer for anything gay, homosexuality.

Like I just needed some type of like, whether it was, you know, [even] talking against it, just any information cause I didn't…

KAILEY: Tell me what to do. And there weren't, there wasn't any, nobody could tell me what to do. They only told me what they would do.

STEPH: You know, there was always an agenda of what the outcome was going to be. When it's, you know, man or human or whatever. So anyway, yeah. Good old Family Christian Store. I could tell you stories about that for ages. I remember, gosh, I think of all the… so like for example, I remember listening to Jennifer Knapp religiously and then she disappeared for a while and I'm like, where did this Jennifer Knapp go?

Also, I can relate to her lyrics so much. Maybe she’s a Lesbian.

KAILEY: Sure enough, she write a book? Did you find out she’s a lesbian?

STEPH: I saw her at hotel cafe like a few years back, like after seven years of disappearing and yeah, she's making music again, but not gay.. No problem.

Okay. So I think that what a lot of people, and myself included, like maybe you want to talk about your family a little bit and kind of maybe get an update of where you're at with your relationship with your mom specifically because you talked about that on the, in the video and how you did want to revisit that one day and hopefully have a peaceful relationship where you two can just exist and maybe it's not her giving you a book or a scripture.

Do you feel like you were able to do that at any point, or is it something that you just kind of left unsaid?

KAILEY: I definitely think we're in a better place now only because, you know, time is the great healer and we've moved on. You know, life happens, bigger things have happened. We've had deaths in the family, you know, and so we've gotten closer. I've never gotten an apology from my mom. I've never gotten acknowledgement from my mom.

I think that's, that's what keeps the distance there. Like there is definitely a distance between us. There's still scars that aren't healed because I just, there's a closure that I'm never going to get. There's an acknowledgement. I'm never gonna receive, an apology I’ll never hear, and I carry that and I go to therapy and talk about that and I just, I don't see a way around it other than getting that from her

And I also don't see me getting that from her.

STEPH: When did you come to terms with the fact that you probably weren't gonna get it?

KAILEY: I think that, cause I think that I've brought it up to her before in a maybe not so direct way. And I, the response I always get is, well you knew why I was doing that. Or you knew that I had to go with what the Bible says.

You know, it's just, it's not an acknowledgement of hurt feelings. Cause you can stand by your beliefs while also owning your actions. You can stand by your beliefs while also apologizing for hurting somebody. But I just know her and I don't see that happening. So I'm just trying to find a way… I love my mom. Don't get me wrong. I just, there's always going to be, I feel like this thing that's standing in between us.

STEPH: Do you think, and obviously I don't know your mom, I'm speaking from my own experience, I'm not trying to project, but do you think it has something to do with admitting that they made a mistake or that they messed up and not being able to own that?

KAILEY: I wish. Yeah. I don't think that she thinks she made a mistake. I think that she's thinks she's right. And I think that I've grown just to be okay with disagreeing. I know that my brother and I have never agreed. We've never thought the same when it comes to same sex marriage and just relationships.

We don't even use the same terminology, you know? But that's okay. Like you're supposed to be able to coexist with people you don't agree with, and I love my brother and we will always agree to disagree on that topic, and that's okay sometimes, you know? But he never hurt me.

He never brought pain to me. He never condemned me. He just told me his truth, but never made me feel like I was less than or wrong. That's the difference.

STEPH: And I think that's where those boundaries come in. Like you said, there's always going to be that distance where it's like a little bit of protection for yourself and for your heart.

For myself, knowing that I will never have those conversations with my family even though I've exhausted myself trying for a very long time. There have been times recently where it's gotten to the point where they have said, I don't even remember that year. I don't even remember your upbringing.

Like trying to just dismiss that entire upbringing, which I think is fear of admitting that they messed up. I know that they would not, if they could go back, I can't speak for my dad, but maybe my mom. I think a lot of times people get wrapped up in what's happening in that era. Like for example, I was raised Pentecostal and there were, you know, tent revivals and prophecies and prophets that would come speak, and The Power Team.

Do you remember The Power Team? Oh my gosh. These like, men in spandex would come to your church and like break things. I know that they would do it in the name of the Lord. They would break bats and like rip telephone books and carry refrigerators down the sanctuary.

It was very weird. I just think that, there are so many things and trends, you know, not even just religious trends, but just trends that you get caught up in, that maybe you would do it differently now if you were to raise your kids and you know, decades later, but if you can't have those conversations with your grown ass kids now and apologize and say, “I don't really know what I was doing” or “I did and I did the best I could, but I know that maybe took a toll on you” and acknowledge it and have an adult conversation.

I'm almost 40 years old, and so for my parents to not be able to sit down and communicate with me about my upbringing and acknowledge some things and also hear my side of it. They've never asked how did it feel to… I won't even get into that part, but the anxiety that it caused me as even a five, or seven year old. That affected my adult life and still does and my relationships.

So to feel dismissed in that way? The only way I can survive at this point is to have those boundaries. Yeah. But that doesn't mean I haven't continued yearly, you know, to like try to… cause I, I need that apology. I need that apology to be able to trust that I can have a relationship with them. And until I get that, I have to know that I can trust myself.

And that's it.

KAILEY: And that makes me think, I was listening to a podcast the other day actually, and they were just talking about how looking at someone who's hurt you, looking at someone who's done wrong, maybe not to you, but to somebody else and asking, you know, “what happened to you?” instead of saying “what's wrong with you?” or “why are you like that?”

Saying “what happened to you to make you the way that you are?” Cause I think that we're all products of our environment, right? We're all products of our upbringing. It's a lot of nurture there. And I wonder like, what happened to your mom? What happened to your dad? I know things that it happened to my mom that have put her in the place that she's in.

And so I think that even knowing those stories as background, that's helped me develop more empathy and sympathy for my mother and move forward in our relationship a little bit because I know the hurt that she's gone through, and that she's carrying with her and, you know, the lack of love that she's received in her life.

And so. I think that knowledge is helpful. I don't know if you have that knowledge.

STEPH: I do have that knowledge, and my mom did go through a lot. And I've had, I do have the empathy for my mom specifically. I also think that there's a point where we're all responsible for ourselves, but for me; I can look back at how my family chose to raise me, and I can blame a lot of things in my life on that, but there's a point where if I keep doing that, it's only doing myself and everyone else a disservice. At some point you have to say, I'm responsible for myself and I need to make a shift so that I can survive, not just survive, but thrive in my adult life.

I would love more than ever to have coffee with my mom and my dad and talk about real life things, talk about their struggles, talk about my struggles. It's just, it's impossible. And it's so sad. And every time I try, it's that reminder. And that… that disappointment that it will never happen. And so I've just shifted my focus to they'll come to me if they're ready, they know exactly what to do, but I can't hold my breath anymore cause I'm going to drown.

KAILEY: And sometimes I think it comes down to the fact that just because they're related to you doesn't mean you'd have them in your life. Like I think that we put a lot of emphasis on family, family, family, family first, family is everything.

You’d die for your family, right? But sometimes you have to pull yourself up first. You gotta put your own mask on first. Just because they're related to you doesn't mean you bent over backwards for them. You know? They're just people in this world and they're not treating you the way that they should have.

If anyone's not bringing positivity into your life, why have that person, blood related or not, In your circle. And I know life's too short for that.

STEPH: Chosen family.

Wow. That was good. That was a good talk.

KAILEY: I hate that for you. And I'm so sorry.

STEPH: It's just, it's one of those things that that is why this podcast exists too, is to talk about these things with someone other than my therapist.

Cause my therapist can, she's wonderful, but it don't feel right. And also it doesn't go anywhere, right? Like it's, at least we can put this out into the universe and hope that at least, like you said, at least one person can relate and maybe it helps them out to know that they're not alone. You know, I would've, I could have used that when I was 16 or 17.

So continuing on with family, you mentioned in the video, which really, I watched it again today, and I've watched it several times over the last few years, but you said that you had told your mom, you're like reminding her, you raised a good person, you raised someone good.

And I think it's interesting that a lot of us, myself included, feel like we have to almost justify that we're good people because we're bi or gay or part of that community to where we almost feel just discredited from the get go.

And like we have to remind our families that they did a good job. That we are good people. But why do we have to justify that we're good people?

KAILEY: I almost feel like I'm telling her that because I think the minute that anyone says I'm gay, or bisexual or I'm whatever, they're automatically labeled well, “Kailey the lesbian,” or you know, you know “Michael, the gay guy” that is the thing that people focus on, right? And it's almost… it's almost as if I was trying to say, I'm not Kailey the Bisexual. I'm just a good person, you know, take away all my labels. At the end of the day, I'm a good person. And so instead of you seeing me through this rainbow colored lens that you've now put on me, mom and dad or whoever, I'm just a good person.

Like strip that all down and I'm just like everybody else, you know? And you did a good job and don't, I think that sometimes parents don't accept their, don't agree with it. Think that they messed up. I got asked questions asked like, were you molested? Were you beaten up?

STEPH: There always has to be a cause. Be a reason, right?

KAILEY: And they did they mess up. What did they do?

STEPH: My mom asked if she ate too much creamed corn.

KAILEY: It was the corn, it was creamed corn.

STEPH: I don't even eat that now… cause there's some…

KAILEY: Creamed corn is delicious.

STEPH: Trauma there.

KAILEY: Traumatized by the creamed corn! But yeah, they didn't do anything wrong. It's almost like I'm having to tell them, reassure them, you know, you did a good job. You did a great job raising me.

I'm perfectly normal. I have a job. I pay taxes, I have a house. You know, like, it's crazy though. All the things we're supposed to be doing.

STEPH: It's crazy that we have to explain and justify just because we're existing and like, “Oh, of course we're good people” like… just because that label is put on us. I've adjusted my way of thinking, I guess, to be proud of being part of the LGBT community. Right? Because at the beginning it was like, Oh, I want to get rid of this. I want to pray it away.

KAILEY: I want to be normal. Right?

STEPH: But now it's like I would not be where I'm at in this decade of my career or as a, as a person in general.

Like if I wasn't gay. You know, it's a part of my life that I'm so proud of, instead of being ashamed. You know?

KAILEY: Yeah. I think I've gotten to that place as well.

STEPH: Hmm. Hmm. We'll cut out this pause….

My font is very tiny, I’ve got to type larger, continuing on with sexuality, so... bi eraser is a big thing.

KAILEY: I never heard this term until today, which makes me…

STEPH: I think it was when I was watching the original L word because….

KAILEY: I haven’t seen that show, I’m terrible. I have not got it.

STEPH: Keep up on the new one!

KAILEY: I’ve never had HBO before.

STEPH: That's Showtime!

STEPH: So, even even our own, within our own community, the L word specifically, that was, I said specifically like 12 times already…. They gave a very hard time to the trans community and the bi community. In the old L Word, this was also like 15 years ago, but still there. They've done a really great job about being very inclusive now, but back then it was like, why don't you make up your mind between vagina and puss… OH!

Oh, same.

KAILEY: That's the same. You don't know any other private parts!

STEPH: I’m the most lesbian and this is the truth!

KAILEY: in breaking news…

STEPH: my Lord, between vagina and penis. Or weiner.

And you'd have to like choose between like black and white, you know? Have you ever felt that where it's like from your lesbian friends, you're like, “Oh, you're a lesbian Kailey,” or from your straight friends it's like, “come on,” you know?

KAILEY: Yeah. It's just that.

So I mean, I feel like I could like get on a soapbox right now and tell you all have things. So I think that's one reason why I had such a hard time figuring it out, right? Because I spent years and years and years only dating women. Hey, and of course when you do that, you hang out with tons of lesbians, you see all the friends, you know everybody in the community and becomes your little family, right?

And it's hard to think, “but I think I still like guys,” you know, and I always had that back of my head and never denied it. But I was in relationships and it looked very gay and it looked very much like a lesbian lifestyle. But I knew that I had never given up that part of me. And so I just didn't know how to articulate that, and I wasn't showing it in any way in my life.

So it was kind of a mental struggle with, am I really thinking that I'm bisexual? Am I just telling myself that because I'm ashamed to be gay? Where do I fall? Is that allowed? You know? And I will say like. My straight friends don't give two shits. They couldn't care less, but I did have lesbian friends say, “you're so gay, Kailey, stop.”

“You're, Oh my gosh, you're so gay. You're the gayest.” They were like, “I think people could be bi, but you're not. You're so gay.” And so I hear that and brush it off and joke, joke it away. But I do think, well, what are they seeing that I'm not seeing? Or what do they know that I don't know?

And then I think now I'm in relationship with a man and have been for several years now, and it's funny, I posted about this, this past Pride because every time Pride comes around even though I am proud of my sexuality and who I am, I don't feel like I can, I don’t have the right to celebrate. I don't know what that is. I almost feel like…i t's not, I don't get to celebrate cause I'm not doing it or I'm not being it or I'm not showing it out loud.

And it's almost, it's almost a sad month for me, which is a weird thing to say because I just don't feel like I left.

Like, I almost like I left that behind and that was a really big struggle for me when I started dating a guy I really had to wrestle with, am I just giving up? Am I, am I walking away from so many years of fighting and arguing for myself?

STEPH: Viewing like you took the easy way out.

KAILEY: Or some literally looking at me like she wasn't gay. She was going through a phase, you know, all of that stuff.

I had to go through in my own head and say, am I, is that what I'm doing? Am I just walking away from all of this? Everything I have fought for, I'm just, am I just throwing it away and walking away? And I really had to wrestle with that. And I came to the realization that no, I'm not.

That's not a phase, it is exactly who I am. And, it will always be who I am.

STEPH: But it's like if it's not one box, it's another.

KAILEY: Steph’s a lesbian, but really like if it's not that box it’s another.

STEPH: Someone wants to put you in a box. Even our own community sometimes when, you know, no one should ever feel that way.

That sucks. I didn't know that about you feeling that way during Pride month, but I could see how you could feel that way and it's just, it shouldn't be that way. Hmm.

KAILEY: And it's also like, I moved away. I didn't have as many gay friends anymore. I wasn't here to be present in that community.

So that's also my fault and on me. But it's funny when I posted that I posted a thing about, you know, I always feel when Pride comes around that I'm not really part of a community. Because when you're bisexual, you're not really straight and you're not really gay. And so where do you fall? But I am still proud.

I had several people that I thought were lesbians write me and say, I feel this way too. I had no idea that they ever thought any other way, and it just made me sad for them because they clearly don't know how to play both sides or whatever you want to call it, or be bisexual and maybe go on dates with dudes and go on dates with girls.

Cause I think that they've just been in that community for so long, that group of friends for so long, they've identified as that for so long that they don't, that they don’t have permission to go outside of that. And that makes me sad because you should express yourself fully, always, and however that, whichever road that takes you down.

And so I was happy they could confide in me and I was like, you're not alone. I understand. But yeah, I definitely think that you don't really feel like there's really, there's a place for you unless you're siding with one or the other. You're siding on the, you know, the side of dating a woman, when I'm with a woman, then you can be in the pride parade, then you can hang out.

Cause you look gay. Sure, you're “bi” but you're doing what everyone else is doing, you know. But if I came with a man, I'm not sure I will get the same attention or…

STEPH: they would probably think that you're an ally, coming in as an ally.

KAILEY: And we had Miley really going home for us. We lost her because she was, cause Miley is bisexual. She was married to a man and she was getting a lot of hate for, you're not gay and blah, blah, blah, and you're dating a man. She was saying, I'm a queer woman, married to a man that doesn't make me not a queer woman.

So she was really standing up for us there. But, they got a divorce and it's all going to shit.. But yeah, I just, it makes me sad and it really does, cause I do feel super proud and I do know in my heart of hearts, that's who I am.

But just because I'm not expressing it “outwardly.” I don't really feel like I'm a part of it anymore.

STEPH: I'm going to be more, uh, intentional about checking in with my Bi friends on during Pride month. Cause I don't, I didn't think of that.

KAILEY: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks.

STEPH: Well, let's go back to the overthinking was Steph portion of the podcast, welcome to my entire life.

KAILEY: I want to sing it.

STEPH: Do you remember?

KAILEY: It's a good one.

STEPH: It gets stuck in your head, I wake up with it in my head.

So what do you fear most in life? What keeps you up at night?

KAILEY: Well, nothing. I go to sleep like a rock.

STEPH: You're so lucky.

KAILEY: One of those… I fear unhappiness and I fear wasting time and life away. You know, I've always, even from a little kid, I've always been scared I'm going to have a job that I hate, which is like a weird fear to have as a 12 year old, like, I don't want to have a terrible job or terrible a boss. But I've always been scared to have a job that I hate.

STEPH: I wanted to drive the monorail at Disneyland when I was a kid. I think you just push a button. I thought you would just steer it, just hang out.

KAILEY:  Definitely, all day.

I've always been scared of that. Luckily, I've never been in a position where I don't like my job. Knock on wood. Lately. I think it's probably a lot of like social media influence or you're seeing everybody do everything, you know?

But I'm afraid of wasting my time not seeing places and going and doing things or not making the most of my time here. I think that that's become a new fear of mine. What am I doing with my life? You know? Is this all there is? And so, and a lot of times it's like, well, I have to pay bills and I have a house and I have to do all these things.

And so that's inhibiting, but making it work, you know…

STEPH: what would you be doing if you didn't have to pay all those things and could just do whatever?

KAILEY: Traveling, I would never be home. I would never, I would take Milton and John we would just go travel everywhere because that's, I just want to see everything, you know?

And I just get nervous that I'm going to miss out on something. You know? It's like the ultimate FOMO of my whole life, but I think it's funny that I'm encouraged by you in that sense, because you've told me before, you're like, I didn't travel anywhere until I was 30 something. You know? I was working hard and building my business, saving my money.

And so honestly that, I think about that. And I think if it's not this year, I will do it, you know? But I haven't made an intention, yet. Think about it and save money and work hard so that I can do those things. Cause I'm not, I'm only 31 I have a lot of life to live.

STEPH: You’re still totally young. You're still a young lass.

KAILEY: I think about you telling me that when you're like, I didn't travel till I was 30 something years old, you know, and you've gone to all the places and so…

STEPH: Luckily, I figured out how to make my career into traveling so it works out.

KAILEY: I need to try and find one of those, that damn monorail sounds pretty good.

STEPH: Sometimes I have regrets. Why am I seeing Greece and Italy. I could be at Disneyland driving a monorail.

No, but I think that it is important to see the world and make time for that, even if it's like one trip a year, you know? And you just got back from a trip.

KAILEY: Yeah, I went Santa Fe! I had never been to Santa Fe before and it was beautiful! It was freaking freezing, but it was just like that we just drove there. It was so easy and it's such an easy thing to do, but planning takes time and it costs money, but end of the day, life is too short.

STEPH: Yep. It's so true. We could be gone tomorrow. Absolutely. I hope not.

KAILEY: But fingers crossed.

STEPH: It's nice having a ramen with you tonight. There's always that. And that germ infested maze!

KAILEY: Also known as Meow Wolf. It was very cool. It was cool.

STEPH: I got claustrophobic and all I could think of was Discovery Zone and it was like…

KAILEY: The minute we got out: hand sanitizer! Quick, quick! Heck yeah, definitely Discovery Zone.

STEPH SINGING: Oh. Discover what I can do... There, I should write jingles for a living around the world.

KAILEY: You have a jingle. You've got so many lives to live.

STEPH: So I do. I feel like I'm not doing enough. The curse of a fantastical brain. Well, thank you for joining me tonight. I think, did we just talk for seven hours or was it just me setting up the podcast?

KAILEY: It took seven hours to set up the podcast.

STEPH: Mics are hard.

KAILEY: Thank you so much for having me on here and talking to me and I'm so excited to hear all your episodes!

STEPH: We should do a life update every three years.

KAILEY: Three years. Yes. Watch, in 2023.

STEPH: What if you, like, lived in Bora Bora or something?

KAILEY: I freaking hope so! You never know.

STEPH: Be setting down the universe intentions. Thank you so much, it’s the Lord's will.

KAILEY: It will be done.

STEPH: God speed.

KAILEY: I think that you're doing good things, Steph, and I think that you work really hard. You probably should eat more, but you're doing a lot of stuff that makes us really proud of you.

Thank you.

STEPH: You know, I eat UCHI a lot, so I live off UCHI for stuff. If off of fish… on that note, I'll be seeing you soon. I look forward to hearing the feedback from this conversation.

KAILEY: I hope that someone heard something and feel like… high five!

STEPH: High-five! [sound effects] Okay, bye!

OUTRO: Hey, thanks for overthinking with Steph.

Can't wait to hear from you on the social, so make your way over to @StephsPodcast on Twitter, and tell me your thoughts. Catch The Breakdown on Patreon where we get into the nitty gritty and overthink the conversations in this episode. Till next time, keep creating scenarios that will never actually happen and live your one damn life.

OUTRO SONG: “Don’t you hate it when you wake up first thing in the morning? Mind is stirring. It’s a wreck. Overthinkin’ with Steph! Cool your jets. Go to bed. Get out of your head!”

JINGLE EXIT

OUTTAKES:

STEPH: God, I'm going to bed, like, I always think, how am I going to perish? And I think, why? How about that you don't think about that?

KAILEY: No.

STEPH: I do all the time cause I think, Oh my gosh, why would I not travel and go do weird things? Like what a way to go, right? If I'm like, Oh yeah, in Greece somewhere on a back road talking to a stranger and I get abducted, then I think, what if I die here alone chewing on a piece of steak and then Rusty has to eat me to survive. You don't have food mishap choke on anything. Oh. I was recording all of that.

KAILEY: No, you were really were not.

STEPH: I mean, the podcast was, I'm going to choke on a pickle. Pickle.

KAILEY: That's how you go, has to be your last words.

STEPH: Famous last words. Nice knowing ya. Bye.