S1E5: OVERTHINKING W/ STEPH Conversion Therapy + Founding Father Cats [Julie Rodgers]
CW/TW: Mention of religious trauma/abuse and conversion therapy.
FOLLOW JULIE HERE
Steph: Do you have trouble turning off your brain meat at night? I invite you to take a break from your thoughts and listen to ours for awhile. This is overthinking with Steph.
Steph: Oh, it feels intrusive. I mean, all of it. It's like a robot arm in our faces.
Julie: Like this. (sings)
Steph: Love songs on the coast. I think I just took it down like an octave. I made it like a… gosh, do you sing?
Julie: Oh, no. I'm tone deaf.
Steph: Do just say that, and like in the shower, you're belting it out and you're actually basically Whitney Houston?
Julie: Well, so I do belt it out in the shower, but it's really bad.
Steph: What would Amanda say about that?
Julie: Oh. She's like, you're the worst singer. Like, yeah, she, she can, she can confirm.
Steph: She sings!
Julie: She doesn't really sing. She plays the piano and she was like, loves music and is into music, but neither of us have the best voices.
Steph: I remember singing around a piano at brand camp with her, and that's the one of the first time.
But that was probably after a lot of like beverages. Maybe this is years ago, but everyone would sing and play. She's so talented.
Julie: She's so talented.
Steph: Do you play music?
Julie: I don't. No, I'm not musically talented.
Steph: You’re like I play the radio and that’s about it. Oh yeah.
Julie: I, so I sing to my cats and sometimes I sing songs where I substitute my cat's names for like, like in the Hamilton soundtrack, I;ll sub my cat's names for like the founding fathers and it's way better.
It's a really great
Steph: Prince and Tobt. Toby's the newest. Yeah, he's fresh. He's brought probably now like a full cat, not a kitten
Julie: So fat too, like, yeah, they're full…. Um, I think we overfeed them because we let them like graze throughout the day, which is a bad idea.
Steph: You give them like dry cat food. Right? I don't know. Cats. I'm highly allergic, so I had an asthma attack.
Julie: You're like, no it's cool. It's cool. Like the cats. Really cute. And then your eyes are like, swelling.
Steph: I forgot about that. I couldn't even open them and I don't think I even… there were there a couple times when I don't bring my inhaler and then I regret it because like, I mean, it's like someone's sitting on my chest and there's no escaping it, but I love animals so much that'll be like, it's worth it and then it's not.
Julie: That was not worth it.
Steph: And then I can't breathe for like a full day.
I think I slept on your couch, and that's where the cats like hang out too. So it was basically like they were sleeping on my face.
Julie: You tried to be so sweet about it.
Steph: I was like, they're so sweet. I think I can see them. My eyes are swollen shut. How old is Toby now? This whole podcast is just about your cat.
Julie: Oh yeah.
Steph: Surprise.
Julie: So we just celebrated Toby's adoption anniversary like two days ago, which is an amazing a year. I want to say we've had Prince for... Maybe we got Prince in 2017?
Steph: It was before Prince passed away, right?
Julie: Right. Oh, wait… Prince? We still have Prince with us.
Steph: No, not your Prince.
Prince. Prince. Oh my gosh. No! That was morbid. I'm like, so your cat's dead. You're like, wait, I didn't even know. I've only been gone for 24 hours.
Julie: It was post, it was post Brent's passing. Yeah. It was after the artists formerly known as Prince. Yes.
Steph: I love that your go to though is your cat and not Prince though
Julie: for sure, for sure.
Steph: Amanda has a Prince tattoo, right?
Julie: Yeah. She's, she's a real groupie. Yeah.
The night that, or, so the day Prince died Amanda texted me and I was kinda like, ”Oh, wow. Like, that's so sad.” And I didn't quite understand
Steph: the impact it had.
Julie: So it was a, it was a late night. There was like a, she
Steph: posted about it on Facebook for a good month, yeah.
I don't mean to laugh, but, no, I didn't mean a month. I meant like maybe a week.
Julie: Oh, for sure. a week At least
Steph: I remember it like affected her a lot
Julie: we, we. I say we because I am her partner, so like you tried to go there with somebody. We were in deep morning
Steph:meet them where they're at
Julie: for a solid week. Right. But it made sense.
Like I don't think I fully understood the moment cause I don't feel that way about any like public figures. Right. Um, but it did make sense when we started kind of talking about the way like he, like his songs had been this sort of soundtrack to so many of these like big moments in her life.
And helped her feel, you know, understood and given her like language to articulate things that she couldn't quite articulate before and like, it’s so intimate.
Steph: it's so universal and relatable,
Julie: right?
Steph: Like you think about it, and like in that moment when you're listening to a track and you feel all of these things and you think, how many other people are feeling this to the same song?
You know, you never know how much music unites people. I love that. So were you ever… I didn't even introduce you or anything, we just started talking about your cats.
I was gonna say, we have Julie Rogers, my friend in my loft. That's what I usually say, but we're not in my loft. We both traveled to New York city just to talk about our cats.
So you live in DC, right? But you're from Chicago. Wait, why do I always think you're from Chicago?
Julie: I think maybe because we met when I was in Chicago?
Steph: At Wheaton, but it's, it's crazy to say, because how long did you live…
Julie: I’m mostly from Dallas.
Steph: man. That's right.
Julie: Like all my mischief. We moved to… so I was born in Tomball, Texas, which is a little outside of Houston.
And then right before high school we moved to the Dallas area. And so I was in, I was in Dallas from like age 14 to like, I don't know, 27 or so.
Steph: That's so interesting. I've known you for years, but there it's, we were just talking about how we haven't had time to just sit down and talk about life.
We've always been at an event or your wedding or a 50th birthday party for Wendy. So you didn't, were you out at any point when you lived in Dallas?
Julie: Oh yeah.
Steph: Like you went to Sue's.
Julie: Okay. Well, no, I was out, but not that kind of out I came out when I was 14. And, wait… no, no no that was a lie.
Steph: Like I just made that up for this podcast.
Julie: Uh, so I came out when I was 14 to a few people at my high school. I came out to my mom on Valentine's day of my junior year in high school.
Steph: Fourteen. Okay.
Steph: Valentines! That's coming up in two days.
Julie: We don't celebrate that anniversary because I ended up in conversion therapy like a week later.
So like I definitely, you know, I sometimes get a little nervous around like conversations around coming out and people saying, you know, share your truth. Because I really, really wish I had waited till I was out of my parents' house to come out. And I think people intuitively know whether it's safe or not.
And, I was encouraged by really well, meaning people to do that, and it was a bad idea.
So anyway, I came out to my mom on Valentine's day of my junior year in high school, and the reason I haven't spent much time in Sue Ellen's is because I spent like almost the decade somewhere… it's like kind of eight years, kind of 10 years.
Cause like it's like leaving a relationship for that last few years, like in and out. So I don't quite know whether, but about a decade in a ministry called Living Hope, which is in Arlington, Texas. Yeah. I spent like 10 years, you know, essentially trying to become straight.
Steph: sounds so welcoming, Living Hope.
Which is so misleading. Did you have any idea at 14 years, you're a kid, you're so little. Did you have any idea what this meant when you were going into conversion? Was it called conversion therapy?
Julie: It wasn't called conversion therapy, and I think, I mean, I think that term is a little bit problematic because technically it's not therapy. When you say, when people say conversion therapy, like technically that is like a licensed professional therapist and an office. Um, but it was the same principles that like reparative therapists would use just in a pastoral setting, right. Where it's like meeting with a minister for pastorial counseling and then like group meetings where we would share, you know, sort of like.
It's like group therapy, right? Um, so anyway, I didn't, I didn't know, I didn't know what it was when I first went. I knew that essentially my mom, after I came out, like did lots of Googling and found out that there were other people like me and essentially found somebody who she thought could help. And I think, I think that's what's so sad about this is like.
Parents love their kids. Yeah, it's not, they mean, well, I think she, she did what she thought was best, and so she takes me out of school early the next week
Steph: and you keeps saying she, was your dad kind of… so you'd hadn't come out to him yet or ?
Julie: So my mom told him when he got home and my dad had a much better response to me.
He was like… you know, I mean, my mom was in full blown meltdown mode and then my dad was like, he got home, he finds out, he goes to my room and he's like, “Hey, you want to like run to the store with me?” So I'm like, cool. And we get in the car and he was like, so mom says you're gay. And I was like, yeah.
And he was like, basically just remember that whatever happens, like your dad loves you no matter what. And it was really, really tender. And at the same time he kind of stood by silently while my mom took me and sort of, I mean, insisted that I go try to become straight and do these programs.
So, my dad's a complicated figure in it, right? Cause it's like great that he just sort of affirmed his love, but it would have been really great if he could have helped that not happen.
Steph: Yeah. Was it like where you knew you could lean on him if you needed to, but he wasn't really vocal or how would you kind of describe that?
Julie: He never, we never really talked about it.
Steph: That’s how my dad was! Like, I came out and then I don't think he's ever acknowledged it or said anything since, but definitely didn't show support. It was just like, well, okay, and disappointment, but no talk of it. And that was over a decade ago. I was 24. Yeah, but I'm like, at what point do you say something?
Because I think that's part of the reason why this podcast exists, and I keep saying that even if we're having some type of conversation, it will impact someone to say something. Initiate conversations, have open dialogue. We're all like… I'll be 37 this year. I'm an adult. You know, I never feel like…
When I go home to my parents' house, and I don't anymore, but when I did, it's like I immediately morphed into this child, you know?
You like immediately become 12 even though you're a grown ass woman with, you know, what is that?
But therapy is definitely helped [with] boundaries, learning about the word codependency and religious trauma and religious abuse. I would have never had that had I not gone to therapy as an adult, but it's almost like you're starting over at a late age for me because I came out later in my twenties but then it's like unlearning all of this stuff I was taught or how to react or who to be and realize that I can create myself now, but I'm also doing this when I'm in my thirties, right.
Julie: Yeah. It takes… I think it takes separation to be able to go back into that kind of environment. If we do. As our, as our whole selves, you know, as peers. Wh have nothing to be ashamed of and are not going to be reprimanded for the fact that we exist in the bodies we do.
Steph: Exactly.
Julie: It's just like weird to think about not talking about it too is like, this is not like, Oh, you know, we're working at this company. This is like. Involves our relationships, who we share our lives with, the people we love, the people we crush on.
Steph: Exactly!
Julie: It touches on everything about our lives, right?
And then also like, we can be fired from jobs because we're gay. This is kind of a big deal. So to not talk about it, like how can you even know somebody if you're not willing to engage with this fundamental part,
Steph: and I know so many friends who are able to go home over the holidays or, or just go visit their families and just exist with them without ever having those conversations.
And I can't, I can't do that personally. It's triggering for me and my family knows in order for me to be in their lives. We have to have some hard talks and they'll never do it. They're not capable of doing it.
Julie: Same, same, same. Yeah.
Steph: And yeah, maybe one day I'll be able to exist with them. And you know. It's just, there was so much sweeping under the rug my entire life that it's, that rug… it's a mountain, you know?
And there's only so much you can keep sweeping under things before you got to get a new rug. And then like, what the heck? Right. But I'm, it sounds like you've like, let's go back, but I also want to know where you're at with your, your family now.
Julie: yeah. You know, so once I was in a relationship with Amanda and I think before we got engaged, I told my family about her and kind of continued to like send email updates about like my gayness and my relationship and things like that, and they just didn't engage really, there weren't, weren't responsive.
Steph: But you continued to just give them updates, like life updates.
Julie: Yeah. If you ever want to meet her, like we would love for you to meet her!
Julie: I would love for you to meet her.
Steph: Like this is only like a four years ago then. Right? Cause I met you.
Julie: Yep.
Steph: Around when you started dating Amanda.
Julie: Oh wow. That's crazy. Yeah. And so, you know, by the time it was like, I quit going home for holidays.
I feel like for me to come home, it would be like I'm off at college if I come home by myself and don't get to like bring my wife, I'm, I'm building a life. I have a family. And if you're not able to meet her, then I don't think we can. You know? You can’t come home.
Steph: I don't know how your upbringing was, but I was very good at being a chameleon.
I blended in with everything. I did what I was told, but I got really good at not just people pleasing, but compartmentalizing our lives, you know? And when coming out, you feel like damned if you do, damned if you doon't kind of, because you're like, Oh, I'm living this lie. But it feels so, like for me, I kept it to myself for so long, but I think I was almost in denial.
But you feel like, okay, I'm doing something that everyone is considering is worthy of hell, you know? But I have to keep it. I have to lie about myself and I can't be true to myself, but because there was, and then you just live in this middle ground that just feels gross, you know? But, all of that to say compartmentalizing like our lives and, and, yeah, sure.
You can go home without Amanda, but what is…
Julie: and then we can just talk about it. We can’t, I'm just like, I'm married.
Steph: Exactly.
Julie: I have a wife, right? Like we have a family.
Steph: Yup.
Julie: Two adorable cats! And I can't go home. And like. Not talk about like, what would we talk about? And so, so I've just kind of tried to continually, they're really good people and I know…
Steph: I met your dad.
Julie: Yeah. So, okay. So my dad, about a month before our wedding, so this is what Amanda and I have been together for three years, my dad decided like, I want to meet who my daughter's marrying, right? And so he got in his Honda civic in Dallas, Texas and drove all the way up to DC to spend a week with us. And it was really, it was really, really great.
You know, it was really, I think it was healing for him in many ways and gave, sort of showed him he needed to come out in different ways. Right. There were ways he wasn't being his full self and he felt like he could show up as this whole self with us. And so, at the beginning of that week, I was like asking if he would come to the wedding.
And he was like, I just, I can't, I can't do that. And I think it's probably more about my mom and my brothers, you know, wanting to, not ruffle feathers. And then by the end of that week, he said he was going to come to the wedding. And so he did. And it's, you know, I mean, I think... I think we all kind of want to have these redemption stories and like, yay, like everything's great now.
And I love, I'm so thankful for the ways that he's moved, and I know that takes so much courage and it's still complicated. You know? Like we, we still had that whole 15 years. But I, I don't know. It's so, it's complicated. Um, but it's also. It's really, I think what was really moving to me was to see that, you know, at the age of 75 years old, people can change, right?
How, how hard it was and how much courage it took. And I don't know, it's really, it's really, really sweet.
Steph: I was talking with one of my other guests on [the] podcast and saying how it is. It is very nice to see movies and shows that kind of wrap it up in a nice bow at the end where everyone comes together and hugs like we all want that for our lives, but that doesn't always happen.
You know, maybe your dad being 75 and coming around, you know, sometimes it does happen, but at what point do you kind of just put up a boundary and say, you know this, I need to come to terms with the fact that maybe my mom and my dad will never come around and I have to continue my life and live a damn good life.
Right? Without being so focused on, you know, putting in this effort into a relationship that might never be there. And I love my parents dearly, but at this point it's like, I don't think they'll come around and I'm, I'm okay where I'm at now, but that's taken a lot of work.
Julie: But you have to build your family.
Steph: Exactly.
Julie: This is, we do this, like I feel like the queer community crushes chosen family and it's people who keep choosing to show up for each other. And I think that we have to cultivate that and nurture that wherever we find it. And, If that doesn't happen with our family of origin, there's a lot to grieve there.
There's a lot of process in therapy and we can move on and be okay. And we do not need to feel guilty about that.
Steph: So your dad came to the wedding. I would like to touch on, if you're okay with, where you're at with your mom now and then go back into the history of it.
Julie: So my mom, she's, gosh, it's so complicated, right?
She loves me so much. My mom occasionally will send me little gifts for our cats. She sent me socks that say Prince, that are the brand Prince, because they're my cats name, you know, and like trying to show these little signs of love. And at the same time she really believes that we are choosing a sinful lifestyle.
She continues to donate lots of money to Living Hope. You know, the conversion therapy organization I was in, she, I think she feels like if she were to engage with me and Amanda together, that she would be supporting a sinful lifestyle and sort of complicit in that sin. And so I, in many ways, I blame, I blame the people who have taught her that.
I blame Jerry Falwell and James Dobson and all these, these leaders that she looked to for moral guidance who told her that the way to love her gay kid was to reject them. And she's trying to love me. And I don't know how all of that works together in her mind, but it's hard and sad.
Steph: It's a process that, I mean, I can't, I'm... I can't imagine, cause I know that I have personally never been through conversion therapy because I did come out right as I was kind of exiting living with my parents and moved shortly after that and got away from everything. But when you come out at such a young age and you're kind of in the thick of it and you have no choice but to do what your parents tell you to do.
And I don't know what kind of, I mean, you were 14 what kind of, what was your state of mind at that point? Were you like, I want to change, you know, or I'll do anything to… what were your thoughts?
Julie: I was 16 when I came out to my mom, which is when she took me. And basically, so my very initial response was like, screw that. I am absolutely not doing that. There's, I'm gay, I'm gay.
This is perfectly fine. The problem is with you all. I was just like, this is like, I just knew, like I knew deep in my heart, I love Jesus. I knew God loved me. And I thought they needed to figure that out.
You know, they need to figure this stuff out. And so she took me to meet with Ricky Chalet, who's the executive director of Living Hope. And I was, you know, he kind of goes through his whole theory about how we end up with same sex attractions. And it's, yeah, it's sort of typical repairative therapy talking points.
And when he got to the end of it and he was like, what do you think? I was like, I think this is horseshit. I'm fine. I really like, I think this is really bad and not true. And I'm not, I'm not here for it. Right. And then the next week I was back, you know? And I think, I think looking back, like for those first several months when I didn't, I didn't want to go I was 16 years old and my options were to drive to Oak Lawn and show up at an LGBT resource center with my backpack and leave the only life I had ever known.
Steph: Exactly.
Julie: Or try to become straight. Those were my two options. Yeah. And like I did not have the courage to leave. I couldn't have done it. And so I, I started meeting with Ricky and honestly, I really liked him.
I really liked that I felt like he saw me. I feel like he's a pastor, right? Like I feel like he, he was nurturing in many ways and it was nice to have somebody to talk to about my feelings and somebody who was interested in what was going on, and I could talk about crushes, you know? I was finally getting to share about my gayness.
And so after the first few months of sort of rebellion around it, I went to my first Exodus conference that summer. So I had been meeting with Ricky for about five months, six months, go to Exodus conference.
Steph: So you’re like 17?
Julie: 17. Yeah. And, at that Exodus conference, I met other people from the Living Hope message boards and they were like, really, really cool.
Steph: Can you just explain what, for people who don't know what Exodus International is, just really quick?
Julie: Oh, so Exodus International was the largest organization in the world that promoted a freedom from homosexuality through Jesus Christ, and they were essentially a umbrella ministry that had like a hundred over, like somewhere around 150 local organizations all over the world on the ground, like Living Hope.
So there was like a relationship between the two. So, but they did these big conferences every year, and we all traveled together as a group with Living Hope to this conference and Living Hope has these online forums with over 5,000 people from all over the world. And so I had been interacting with some of them online, and when I met them, I was like, these are the coolest people, right?
They're in college, they're in their early twenties and they were like me. It was the first group of people I'd ever met that were just like super gay, even if we called it same sex attractions and love Jesus. And wanted to be good, you know, like we were so earnest. And so when I met those people, I felt this sense of belonging.
And it was at that conference that I decided like, I want to do this. Like I want to give my heart to Jesus. Which like in that setting meant do the whole process, right? And I devoted myself wholeheartedly to that process. And when I came back. My mom was so proud of me, you know, and there was such peace in the home.
And I felt like there was a path for me to be good.
Steph: Wow. How long were you in Exodus then, or were?
Julie: So I was 17 at that point, and I did not.. so unfortunately what happened was, a few months after the Exodus conference, Ricky asked me to give my testimony at their donor banquet. So I was a senior in high school at that point I did not have an ex gay testimony, and I was like, I don't know what that is.
Steph: Right.
Julie: He was like, I'll help you write it! So we write together this story, that basically like sort of illustrated their talking points, right? And I believed it, right? Like if somebody narrates your life story to you, there's a way in which that makes sense.
You make it make sense of your life and you can do so many things with the same set of facts about your life. And so, I bought it and I was like, yeah, I think this is what's going on. I think I had these faulty relationships with my mom and dad. And so what I need to do is like embrace my femininity.
And as I do that I'll begin to be drawn toward the mystery of men. And you know, and like I was all in, so I start sharing my testimony. It was super well received. And so Ricky starts, like taking me with him everywhere he goes to speak, like I would get my testimony and then he would do his little talk and we made this like, you know…
Steph: you were like the success story, right?
Julie: Totally. And I think, you know, I never, I never said that I was like healed, but I was a success in the fact that like I was so devoted and I was saying no. The way I would word it is I'm saying no to my flesh. I'm saying no to my, you know, my sexuality and I'm saying yes to Jesus.
And that was a really compelling message for people. That was like a successful testimony. I didn't know at that point that you can't like suppress one part of yourself without suppressing lots of other things. And it leads to a fragment self that eventually implodes. But, at that time, that's, that's what I was doing.
And it, it provided a sense of identity and community for me that, it wasn't until later that I started realizing how damaging it was. Like I was, I was engaged in self harm too, right? Like so, but I thought, Oh, I'm engaged in self harm because like I recently gave into my flesh and masturbated. It's like, NO! I'm burning my body because of the super toxic teaching that makes me hate myself.
Steph: Right.
Julie: And so, anyway, I was a part of it in that weird capacity where I was like a poster child slash participant, and I think that complicated things.
Steph: Were you able to talk about what you just said with Ricky?
Julie: Yeah. Yeah, and they… they always thought that anytime we like a destructive pattern that you would see would be, we would come sort of deny, deny, deny, deny, and then go have like binge sex or something.
Right. Like really high risk. Unhealthy. You know, and we would come back and repent and there would always be grace and we would go back into the process and the cycle and like they didn't see how problematic it was that was how our sexuality was expressed. And then we couldn't just be like, Hey, I'm starting to have these feelings for my friend.
And we held hands that would be choosing a lifestyle of sin, but it was totally normal to go have like binge sex and then come and talk about how terrible and gross our bodies are and how awful we are and repent. And so anyway, the way that they would see that is like, wow, you really had a fall. Like you really are struggling and you know, the flesh is weak and it wasn't like we're just setting you up for a disastrous, emotional, relational life.
Steph: Right.
Julie: Oh my gosh.
Steph: So what was your, when did Exodus International cease to exist? And what's your involvement there?
Julie: So that was kind of…
Steph: are we fast forwarding too much?
Julie: No, no.
Julie: So what happened was, because I was giving my testimony with Living Hope, eventually, like somehow somebody from Exodus heard me and was like, Oh, will you give your, you know, when you start doing some of that with us? So I was like… I started, I guess around the age of 24.
Steph: Oh my gosh.
Julie: Doing the testimony at some Exodus conferences and it wasn't until, so that was also around the time I'm out of college by that point, I'm like, wait a second, I'm still super gay. And I started running into old friends who had left Living Hope, who were in really, really rough places. And I was starting to see like, Oh, this is actually really damaging.
It's not just that like Jacob is a bad guy. It's like he is not well, and so I started coming to the realization that like, yeah, that it was damaging and I was a part of like a super harmful community and narrative. And so at that point, I started talking to leaders and I, I eventually got to this place where I wrote, Alan Chambers and the team.
And I was like, I can't, I can't, I can't do this anymore. Like I can't participate. Like, and he was like, well, you meet up with me in Atlanta. So I met up with him
Steph: And Alan Chambers is,
Julie: he was the president of Exodus at that time. So when I met up with them, I was just like, look like I'm still super gay. I don't know what I'm going to do with my theology.
Like I don't, I don't know how to like think about this, but I do know that this is harming my friends and I can't participate in it any longer. And he looked at me and he said I've been hearing similar stories, and I'm also coming to terms of the damage that we've caused. And I need somebody that's going to tell the truth.
Steph: Oh my gosh.
Julie: And so he was like, will you consider staying around for another year or so and telling people what you just told me? And I was like, you want me to like speak at Exodus conferences and tell people I'm gay? And he's like, yeah.
Steph: Wow.
Julie: I didn't want to do that cause I just want to be done with it and like figure my life out.
But I was also like, I felt like I had some sort of responsibility to try to change the system from within and to try to like reach parents, you know, who were still trying to figure out what to do with their kids and stuff like that.
So, so I started doing that and, after I wrote… I wrote a blog post for them where I was basically kind of saying these things, and this guy named Michael Bus, he reached out to me. And he was actually the original founder of Exodus and he was like, Hey, that was incredible. I'm very shocked to hear somebody from Exodus say they haven't changed and that they like mourn the damage they've caused.
And he said, you said in your blog posts that you hope to hear stories and meet people, meet survivors, you know? And he was like, I run a Facebook group with a lot of, ex-gay survivors and they would like to engage with you if you're, if you're willing. So I'm like, okay. So you get in this group and there's like 75 survivors who are obviously very understandably very angry.
I'm still trying to deal with the fallout, of this toxic teaching that destroy their lives. And so after, like, I'm very quickly like. I'm not capable. I can't, like, I'm not Exodus, right? I'm still a kid in many ways. So I reached out to Alan Chambers and Randy Thomas, the vice president of Exodus at that time. And I'm like, you guys need to get in this group because like you are Exodus and like, you can do something about this.
And so then, Lisa Ling who had this show, she's a journalist, she has a show on CNN and at that point she had one called like,
Steph: isn't it like This is Life or something like that?
Julie: Something like that. The hero, it is called Our America maybe. So she ended up sort of like doing this sort of, I don't know, filming a little mini session of like me and then Alan Chambers and his wife Leslie with.
Uh, 12 ex-gay survivors. And it was in that circle on TV that I remember for the first time, you know, holding that space of them feeling all they were sharing and being like, that's my story. Like that's my, I'm not, I'm not this, I'm that. And like. What does this mean? Like what does this mean? I like got in my car and drive 30 minutes in the wrong direction. Crying. Couldn't see the road like it was…
Steph: So you were how old?
Julie: So at that point I was, I was turning 25. 26 maybe. And… and then, somewhere in the next year I think Exodus ended. And so I was just, I was kind of around for all of that in that like weird capacity.
Steph: Wow. That's a lot. It is a whole lot and I know we're just getting into like, that's just the bullet points of it. You know? There's so much more to your story. How old are you now?
Julie: I am 34 years old. I have a great therapist.
Steph: I'm just going to say like, what's your, what's your status now? Like how did that take a toll on you in your adult life?
Like in your thirties now? How are you feeling with all of that has it. I mean, at some point it sinks in and you're like, I can't believe that's my life. I'm going to speak about it. I'm going to write about it. Where are you at now with all of it?
Julie: So, you know, for the last few years I kind of like stopped talking a whole lot publicly about all of this.
Steph: Yeah.
Julie: Because I was like, I need some space to be in a process. And I need to see where it goes without that pressure of having to be somewhere. And so I gave myself that space and I, during that time, wrote a book, which will be out someday. And, it was through writing that book that I like really went back and was like, dwelling in that place.
And, yeah. I was a bit of a wreck, like I was an actual wreck for a long time. And I think…
Steph: and that's some, sometimes we don't talk about that publicly because you feel, I mean myself, I guess I can only speak for myself, but you don't want people to see that those parts of you, you know, because…
I've always been like, let me tell the story, the happy ending of it, but I'm like, these are the parts that, you know, the lows of the lows that I'm like, that's relatable because a lot of us go through that, but we're not having those conversations. We want people to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Sometimes we're in you’re, when you're in the thick of it there's not a light at the end of the tunnel that you can see!
Julie: and to be honest, I still, I'm still like… I'm still really sad.
Steph: Yeah.
Julie: Right. Like there's still the first three decades of my life almost were kind of a mind fuck. I don't know, like, what was all of that? Like all of my formative, fundamental, developmental years were in this system that shaped not just like, Oh, I used to believe this about the book of Romans, and I believe this [now,] it like shaped what I understood, like how I understood what it meant to be a human in the world and relate to other people. And so I'm still, I think working through the fallout of that,, I'm, I'm happy in many ways, right?
Because I get to be integrated and free. And I live in DC where there's just rainbows everywhere and like, you know, little gays wear tailored sweatpants and just everything. There's so much joy and so much life and happiness. I have the most amazing wife in the whole world, and we're Lowe's lesbian cat moms, and like, you know, there's, there's so much joy and yet, there's a lot of trauma to reckon with.
And I was just talking with some friends the other day where we were like… It's okay that we're not healed. Right. It's okay that we don't have a big redemption story around all of it right now. That we're still just reckoning. Right. Like, that's enough. That's enough.
Steph: It's a lot of… I mean, you're trying to live your life and work still and, you know, help other people.
Be a good person, be a good wife, you know, run a business. Right? But there's all this like underlying stuff that you almost, if it's like, I don't have time for all of that. I wish I could go to therapy every day.
Julie: Oh my gosh, right?!
Steph: And I just feel like I'm so busy, but this is like the foundation of me, of who I am and yeah, I've made it through and I've come out on top, but oh my gosh, 2018 which was fresh.
That was like a year and a half ago was one of the lowest points in my life. And it's that balance, especially when you have a following and people can see, you know, your work, your voice insight into your life.
There was a quote that I've said on this podcast before, I think he was Bernay Brown, but speaking from a scar instead of an open wound, which I learned very quickly as I was sharing in 2018 like what I was going through in that moment, and I'm like, is this going to come back? Like what's the boundary? What's the, you know, like is this an overshare with people, they're relating with me, sure, but what's the right time to share?
And I feel like now it is that, you know, I can engage in these conversations and feel like I've made progress enough where 2018 I wasn't in a place to be sharing because I, it just was bad. It was really low. It was really sad. A lot had happened. A lot of loss and grief and going through it by myself, even though people would look at it at me and say, Steph has so many friends, Steph’s around people.
No, I isolated myself. I was a professional isolator. You know? And when you're running a business, you can't just put that on hold. So then it's like self-medicating while you're trying to, you know, just run your life. And I think that now it is important for me to initiate these conversations, but also to remind people that there are still days, weeks where I'm not okay.
You know? Do we ever get fully repaired? I don't know. But it's waking up in the morning and saying, I wake up with myself, and only myself, every single day. I have to live with myself and be happy and just trying to live a good and happy life and be proud of myself.
I think that's where it was. My, everything was skewed a little bit, was like giving God all of the credit for everything that I was, instead of, you know, being proud of accomplishments. And I talked about that with another guest and I don't know, I think that we're all in repair and as long as we keep talking about it. We'll get there.
Julie: I can say, like, I'm able to show up as myself in a way that I just never could before. There was so much detachment and so much compartmentalization, and so I think like, you know, the idea of like a healing or a redemptive story, meaning like… feeling good all the time. I do feel good a lot of the time. Sometimes I don't just like were saying, and yet I'm healthier; I'm able to, to be present with people. I'm able to be honest with people. I am integrated, you know? And so I think it's, it's not, it's not like all or nothing. Right. it's not like...
I guess there's not going to be a fairy tale ending. It's just going to be, life is more beautiful and it's also sad sometimes.
Steph: because we're human, we're human. That's what we are like. I dunno. Just embracing that, that, that was hard for me, that I'm not perfect. I don't have to be perfect because that's not real life, you know?
And for people to expect that from anyone is setting us all up for failure. And I'm just, I'm thankful for you for so many reasons. I mean, you're an incredible friend, but just what you've done for our community, it's unparalleled. It is. So I just, I remember getting an Exodus International pamphlet from my parents when I came out and thinking, Oh my gosh, what is this thing like EW.
And to know that I'm sitting here and friends with someone who helped dismantle that is, is massive. But I guess let's end with what I ask everyone is what keeps you up at night? What is something that constantly plays in your brain that just hasn't seemed to go away?
Julie: You know, as a, as I've been writing this book, I'm kind of like in a final stages of revisions right now.
And I am..I'm writing about my experiences within these evangelical communities and a couple of different stages of that, that are fairly important in terms of this conversation about LGBTQ people in Christian communities. And in writing about that, it involves writing about other real human beings.
And I think everybody, most people are doing the best they can, and most people have pretty good intentions, at least the people in my story, right? Like there's some assholes up there that are like peddling some like horrible things that don't have good intentions. But the people in my story did, and I'm really wrestling with how to write about them in a way that is honest about how harmful so much of it was.
And also allows them to be complicated people that aren't, you know, and that honors them. And that doesn't just, yeah. Nobody's just a victim or a villain, right? Like, we're all really complicated people and there's a big difference between intentions and impact and I want that to come through in writing about them.
But, that keeps me up at night of like, how do I, how would they tell this story? How do they imagine themselves in this story? Cause it's very different than the way I understand what, what they were doing and how they were behaving. And, um, but I, yeah, I don't know. I want, I want to represent them in a way that they could identify themselves and feel like they weren't reduced to [a] certain type.
Steph: Yup. That makes sense. That's a lot. That's a huge weight though. I can see how that can keep you up at night.
Julie: Yeah.
Steph: Um, so how do we find this book when it comes out? Um, how do we find you on social media, website?
Julie: So I am, I've mainly been on Instagram for the last couple of years cause it's the most fun.
And I just like share about my cats and that's great. So that's probably my favorite place to connect. I will get back on Twitter once I'm finally done with the book, and it's just, you know…
Steph: What is your handle?
Julie: It’s @Julie_Rodgers, on all those sites.
Steph: I’ll put that in the show notes.
Julie: I'll probably start posting annoyingly about my book. As it’s going to come out.
Steph: I can't wait. Thank you so much for being here.
Julie: Oh, AND! I'm featured in a documentary coming out soon.
Steph: When is that? This year?
Julie: It’s actually about this! So it's called Pray Away and it'll premier in a few months. It will premiere in the spring.
And it's about all of this, like the, the sort of like history and continuation of the movement to pray the gay away. And I haven't seen it yet, so that's going to be a little weird.
Steph: Wow, that is a big deal. So, you’ve been busy!
Julie: Busy. But yeah, been busy doing that.
But I love the team. I really trust the people that are… the directors, the producers. I really trust them and I feel like. They are going to tell the story really well and I think that anybody who's interested in this conversation will definitely want to see that.
Yeah, I think it'd be really cool.
Steph: And I cannot wait to see that. I'm so happy to know you. So proud of you. You're killing it and thanks for visiting me in my hotel room. And, yeah, look forward to Julie's story and let's sign off now. Let's go shoot some photos!
Julie: Okay!
[OUTRO] Well, Hey, thanks for Overthinking With Steph. Can't wait to hear from you on the social.
So make your way over to add Steph's Podcasts on Twitter, and tell me your thoughts. Catch the breakdown on Patreon, where we get into the nitty gritty and overthink the conversations in this episode. Till next time, keep creating scenarios that will never actually happen and live your one damn life!